After reading this, I agree we owe the world an apology.
Next time, call Canada. Or France.
10 thoughts on “We’re sorry!”
Thanks for the link.
Just read the link you had in this message and apparently you agree with “smash”. So I was just thinking… while you guys are doing all that apologising,beating on the drum,flag waving etc. Feeling good..don’t forget about how we saved all those red savages…don’t forget the “Trail of Tears”…those 3/4 of a man blacks. In other words when you tell a story… Tell the whole damn story!!
A really interesting link. The article itself was really sarcastic but the comments that followed were rather educational.
Well, Wally I don’t see the connection between America’s sins vis a vis the Indians and slaves and our unequaled history of opposing tyranny and spreading democracy throughout the world. Even leaving aside that fact that it is illogical to apply 21st century moral values to the actions of our ancestors (and ignoring the fact that our transgressions pale in comparison to the brutality of the British, French, and Spanish of that era), is it your position that because we have not always lived up to our own ideals that we are forever precluded from acting on behalf of the oppressed? That seems to be compounding wrong rather than righting it.
What strikes me as indefensible is turning our backs on those who seek justice in the world. Providence has given us the means to do good, I can think of nothing worse than walking away from that responsibility.
But leaving altruistic motives aside, can you argue that a demoncratic Iraq is not in our own selfish national interest? And if you oppose democracy in Iraq (or at least refuse to denounce the terrorists who have made it their goal to see us fail), then are you not in fact supporting the same type of abhorent behavior that your criticise our ancestors of?
Yeah, I will wave the flag and beat the drum proudly. I do not blame America for the world’s ills. I see us as a force for good and the last hope for freedom. If we will not stand against the world’s bullies, then who will?
But John our treatment of the Indians and Blacks was carried out because it was in our best interest. Therein lies the problem. At the time those folks promoting the policies that repressed, enslaved and resulted in the deaths of many, were beating the drum and waving the flag. Time has changed and so has our opinion of how America handled those situations. We Americans have evolved over the course of time in our pursuit of self-determination and we have experienced a variety of growing pains that have shaped us. Some lessons are hard learned but then maybe that is what makes them stick. When we go into a country for the purpose of reinventing them in our image, even if for the most altruistic of reasons (and we aren’t in Iraq for altruistic reasons though folks like you certainly like to pretend we are) we deny them the right of self determination and they lose out on the lessons we learned the hard way. Force something on a kid even if it is for his on good and he/she will still be resentful. Well it is no different for adults and since countries are nothing more than a body of people, it is no different for a country. The really interesting thing I got from that article was that most of the wars/conflicts that America has been involved in since WWII have not resulted in happy endings for the countries involved. I sincerely hope things work out well in Iraq and I believe that we have a duty to stay for the long haul but I don’t hold out much hope for success. Human rights abuses still proliferate in Iraq, and that is under our handpicked government. So while they may get to vote for a new government that does not guarantee democracy as we know it. It might well result in an elected thuggery, in which case those people may turn there backs on democracy as a failed process, thus setting back their natural evolution to such a state by hundreds of years. Of course thsi is just speculation on my part but that is all you are doing too. And yes John I do beleive we should examine consequences and the potential effects fo our actions before taking military action. In some instances not taking military action is the better course.
Thank you, Carol. No one will convince me that Cheney or his lap-puppet Bush have ever acted on an altruistic notion.
Well now burlybassted, let’s set aside whether we are in Iraq for altruistic reasons. Maybe it is simply a matter selfish national interest. Is you hatred of the president more important than seeing the Iraqis successfully implement a democratically elected government? Would you deny these people that chance just to see Bush suffer a defeat? The so-called insurgents have admitted their goal is to defeat democracy. Can you really be on their side in this?
This is what I don’t get, you can hate the President or Cheney, I don’t care. But this willingness to turn our backs and leave the job unfinished, to succumb to tyranny, is so contrary to everything I ever considered “liberal” that I just don’t understand how the left can blinded by hate as to not see this.
Hey, I’m on the left and I throughly dislike Bush/Cheny’s foreign policies. I would have loved to see them defeated. However, like many, perhaps most, lefties I believe we have to stay to finish the job. That job is not democracy as we know it but stability. Big difference. Muslims have a huge cultural outlook to overcome before they can successfully practice democracy. While we may be ensuring the safety of the Shiites are actions in Iraq have endangered Sunnis. Sorry but Sunnis were not terrorist or antiAmerican before the war. All of them were not Bathists before the war and even all of the Bathist were not bad people before the war. They were more likely to have embraced democracy that the Shiites. (Note that the Kurds are Sunnis.) They were definitely in favor of a secular society, a much needed attribute for democracy to flourish. While I seriously question the idea that it was in the best interest of America to go to war in Iraq, there can be no denying that having exacerbating a bad situation into a dreadful situation, providing training and recruiting oppotunities to terrorists, it now is in our best interest to bring stability to Iraq. Meanwhile, the conservatives of America, neocons excluded, are increasingly clamoring for us to prematurely withdraw, i.e., as soon as the elections are over.
John, it is eerily Michael Moore-like the way you infer so many incorrect conclusions from a simple personal attack on the Bush-Cheney monster. I certainly do not advocate withdrawing from Iraq, and certainly do not wish to lose this or any war. It pleases me no end that we are regularly killing anti-American insurgents. To pull out of Iraq would be to dishonor our fine servicemen and women who have been killed and maimed in this ill-conceived and poorly executed adventure. What I don’t know is how long we should stay in Iraq to ensure the survival of democracy. I believe the Iraqis will prove as unwilling to fight for democracy as did the South Vietnamese. I am floored to learn that Iraqi nationals in the US will be allowed to vote absentee in the upcoming election. These are scum who fled Iraq rather than resist Saddam; they live here now in comfort while our boys fight for their democracy. If they want to vote, they should go home and grab a rifle.
Most Americans will fight to defend America. But the government needs to lie in order to motivate a lot of people to die for someone else’s freedom. Anybody who is against America is my enemy and I am all for exterminating them. But for our children to die for democracy for a people who have never fought for their own democracy is a crock of crap. Yet that is the package Cheney-Bush is peddling. Big surprise when I drive past the recruitment centers I don’t see any waiting lines.
Cheney-Bush was elected, perhaps even fair and square, and I have no problem with that. My problem is with people who think because Cheney-Bush won, I have lost my right to criticize. I just can’t respect a man who is morally corrupt; who claims to be guided by his Christian faith, but whose actions counter the teachings of Jesus as I understand them. I can’t respect a man who sends young men and women to die for democracy in Iraq when he was unwilling to risk his own skin for the democracy of South Vietnam.
It is not the war I oppose. I believe our service men and women deserve better leaders. And I believe Cheney-Bush is a liar. And like yours, all of my beliefs are correct.
Thanks for the link.
Just read the link you had in this message and apparently you agree with “smash”. So I was just thinking… while you guys are doing all that apologising,beating on the drum,flag waving etc. Feeling good..don’t forget about how we saved all those red savages…don’t forget the “Trail of Tears”…those 3/4 of a man blacks. In other words when you tell a story… Tell the whole damn story!!
A really interesting link. The article itself was really sarcastic but the comments that followed were rather educational.
Well, Wally I don’t see the connection between America’s sins vis a vis the Indians and slaves and our unequaled history of opposing tyranny and spreading democracy throughout the world. Even leaving aside that fact that it is illogical to apply 21st century moral values to the actions of our ancestors (and ignoring the fact that our transgressions pale in comparison to the brutality of the British, French, and Spanish of that era), is it your position that because we have not always lived up to our own ideals that we are forever precluded from acting on behalf of the oppressed? That seems to be compounding wrong rather than righting it.
What strikes me as indefensible is turning our backs on those who seek justice in the world. Providence has given us the means to do good, I can think of nothing worse than walking away from that responsibility.
But leaving altruistic motives aside, can you argue that a demoncratic Iraq is not in our own selfish national interest? And if you oppose democracy in Iraq (or at least refuse to denounce the terrorists who have made it their goal to see us fail), then are you not in fact supporting the same type of abhorent behavior that your criticise our ancestors of?
Yeah, I will wave the flag and beat the drum proudly. I do not blame America for the world’s ills. I see us as a force for good and the last hope for freedom. If we will not stand against the world’s bullies, then who will?
But John our treatment of the Indians and Blacks was carried out because it was in our best interest. Therein lies the problem. At the time those folks promoting the policies that repressed, enslaved and resulted in the deaths of many, were beating the drum and waving the flag. Time has changed and so has our opinion of how America handled those situations. We Americans have evolved over the course of time in our pursuit of self-determination and we have experienced a variety of growing pains that have shaped us. Some lessons are hard learned but then maybe that is what makes them stick. When we go into a country for the purpose of reinventing them in our image, even if for the most altruistic of reasons (and we aren’t in Iraq for altruistic reasons though folks like you certainly like to pretend we are) we deny them the right of self determination and they lose out on the lessons we learned the hard way. Force something on a kid even if it is for his on good and he/she will still be resentful. Well it is no different for adults and since countries are nothing more than a body of people, it is no different for a country. The really interesting thing I got from that article was that most of the wars/conflicts that America has been involved in since WWII have not resulted in happy endings for the countries involved. I sincerely hope things work out well in Iraq and I believe that we have a duty to stay for the long haul but I don’t hold out much hope for success. Human rights abuses still proliferate in Iraq, and that is under our handpicked government. So while they may get to vote for a new government that does not guarantee democracy as we know it. It might well result in an elected thuggery, in which case those people may turn there backs on democracy as a failed process, thus setting back their natural evolution to such a state by hundreds of years. Of course thsi is just speculation on my part but that is all you are doing too. And yes John I do beleive we should examine consequences and the potential effects fo our actions before taking military action. In some instances not taking military action is the better course.
Thank you, Carol. No one will convince me that Cheney or his lap-puppet Bush have ever acted on an altruistic notion.
Well now burlybassted, let’s set aside whether we are in Iraq for altruistic reasons. Maybe it is simply a matter selfish national interest. Is you hatred of the president more important than seeing the Iraqis successfully implement a democratically elected government? Would you deny these people that chance just to see Bush suffer a defeat? The so-called insurgents have admitted their goal is to defeat democracy. Can you really be on their side in this?
This is what I don’t get, you can hate the President or Cheney, I don’t care. But this willingness to turn our backs and leave the job unfinished, to succumb to tyranny, is so contrary to everything I ever considered “liberal” that I just don’t understand how the left can blinded by hate as to not see this.
Hey, I’m on the left and I throughly dislike Bush/Cheny’s foreign policies. I would have loved to see them defeated. However, like many, perhaps most, lefties I believe we have to stay to finish the job. That job is not democracy as we know it but stability. Big difference. Muslims have a huge cultural outlook to overcome before they can successfully practice democracy. While we may be ensuring the safety of the Shiites are actions in Iraq have endangered Sunnis. Sorry but Sunnis were not terrorist or antiAmerican before the war. All of them were not Bathists before the war and even all of the Bathist were not bad people before the war. They were more likely to have embraced democracy that the Shiites. (Note that the Kurds are Sunnis.) They were definitely in favor of a secular society, a much needed attribute for democracy to flourish. While I seriously question the idea that it was in the best interest of America to go to war in Iraq, there can be no denying that having exacerbating a bad situation into a dreadful situation, providing training and recruiting oppotunities to terrorists, it now is in our best interest to bring stability to Iraq. Meanwhile, the conservatives of America, neocons excluded, are increasingly clamoring for us to prematurely withdraw, i.e., as soon as the elections are over.
John, it is eerily Michael Moore-like the way you infer so many incorrect conclusions from a simple personal attack on the Bush-Cheney monster. I certainly do not advocate withdrawing from Iraq, and certainly do not wish to lose this or any war. It pleases me no end that we are regularly killing anti-American insurgents. To pull out of Iraq would be to dishonor our fine servicemen and women who have been killed and maimed in this ill-conceived and poorly executed adventure. What I don’t know is how long we should stay in Iraq to ensure the survival of democracy. I believe the Iraqis will prove as unwilling to fight for democracy as did the South Vietnamese. I am floored to learn that Iraqi nationals in the US will be allowed to vote absentee in the upcoming election. These are scum who fled Iraq rather than resist Saddam; they live here now in comfort while our boys fight for their democracy. If they want to vote, they should go home and grab a rifle.
Most Americans will fight to defend America. But the government needs to lie in order to motivate a lot of people to die for someone else’s freedom. Anybody who is against America is my enemy and I am all for exterminating them. But for our children to die for democracy for a people who have never fought for their own democracy is a crock of crap. Yet that is the package Cheney-Bush is peddling. Big surprise when I drive past the recruitment centers I don’t see any waiting lines.
Cheney-Bush was elected, perhaps even fair and square, and I have no problem with that. My problem is with people who think because Cheney-Bush won, I have lost my right to criticize. I just can’t respect a man who is morally corrupt; who claims to be guided by his Christian faith, but whose actions counter the teachings of Jesus as I understand them. I can’t respect a man who sends young men and women to die for democracy in Iraq when he was unwilling to risk his own skin for the democracy of South Vietnam.
It is not the war I oppose. I believe our service men and women deserve better leaders. And I believe Cheney-Bush is a liar. And like yours, all of my beliefs are correct.
Here! Here!