You know, watching what’s going on in America from 7000 miles away is something of a blessing. What with all the Obama worship and indoctrination of school kids and all, I just wouldn’t be a happy camper.
Still, it’s been in my mind that there is something strangely familiar about the personality cult surrounding The One. Then I came across a video and it all made sense. But of course, how could I have missed the similarity to the “Dear Leader” only 30 miles north of my front door? Duh!
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I loathe any group person who uses kids to promote their political message.
Disgusting.
Yes it is so disgusting that children would sing a song about spreading happiness and freedom.
While you object to the indoctrination of children into a political philosophy the truth is parents do that and since when was that objectionable to Republicans, who promote themselves as the defender of the family? I believe that includes the right to teach one’s kids the values you believe are important.
Clearly the parents of these children supported Obama and had no objections to their kids wearing Obama t-shirts and singing a song supporting Obama’s election. What I can’t figure out is why when this is of an event from nearly a year ago is it news now?
1. Nice try on the first redirect.
2. You must have read the invisible typing where I said that it was ok for Republicans to do so. You got me there.
Furthermore, teaching kids values is a far cry from teaching them silly dances and singing in tribute to a guy they probably know nothing about either as a person or in reference to party politics.
If parents are able to teach their children values that they believe are important, what conditions apply? I have seen murals in Korea by elementary school students citing death to Japan and Japanese citizens done as a school project and clearly condoned by parents. Or does the freedom to teach apply to only those things that you personally agree with?
Disgusting.
Goat I think your response to the kids singing is a bit overblown. John’s video is funny and its a poke in the eye to those parents who involved their kids in this. Its a kind of cautionary tale about the slippery slope on which they stand done in a humorous fashion. It holds a grain of truth which is why its funny but kind of horrifying at the same time. You aren’t suppose to leap however, to the conclusion that the two situations are exactly the same. They aren’t. Its not suppose to make you disgusted or angry but make you think.
Its okay for kids to sing songs supporting change even when the mantra is an election theme as long as these kids also know it is okay to criticize Obama or to support another candidate or position. See those little Korean kids are taught that they cannot do that. Therein lies the difference.
My biggest objection to that video is that the little Korean kids shown are so much cuter than the American kids and a lot more talented. Couldn’t we have found some American kids to give them a run for their money?
And would everyone do me a favor and ignore my last post. It really is way out of context to this disscussion (at least one sentence). I guess being a bit ill was the cause (irritable). I certainly do not won’t to imply anyone is pro anything. It is something I am passionate about but, realize it is a personal choice for each individual and not my choice.
…………..we’re gonna spread happinessssssss……………..we’re gonna spread freeeeedoooommmmm………
Great example, John.
……bowing deeply here…….
I have no response to the kids singing – my response is to the idiots that taught them. The disgust is not in the comparison either – it is in people using kids to promote something that they (the kids) know little to nothing about. It is my view that the people behind these kinds of videos and songs are simply using an appeal to emotion to promote their own political views.
Well if you say it is ok then it must be; there is no point actually making an argument. Also congratulations of the fact that you completely destroyed an argument I never made.
I will, however, respond anyways. Whether the kids have the right to criticize or “support” another candidate is a moot point – in all probability they lack the mental capacity and/or experience to make a valid and informed decision. I also doubt that those teaching the kids presented the kids with unbiased information.
I also wonder what the reaction would be if one of the children actually spoke out against Obama and his policies (if on the slight possibility that the kid was actually informed and had valid criticism). Would he/she be chastised? Forced to sing along? Would they be able to opt out? Hard to say. If presented in this light the kids may not have as much freedom of choice as you seem to believe.
My interpretation of the video is quite simple: it is neither funny nor thought provoking – but the irony is delicious.
I think we all know (whether some accept) that the NEA has used school text books as their personal propaganda phamplets. Whole chapters are presented decrying the myth of the “Liberal Media”. Myth? They do not even say the Twin Towers were brought down by Islamic terrorist. That would be un-PC.
“Would he/she be chastised? Forced to sing along? Would they be able to opt out? Hard to say. If presented in this light the kids may not have as much freedom of choice as you seem to believe.” I didn’t need to see you write that to know that you fear “someone” is indoctrinating these kids, using them for propaganda and possbily forcing them to participate. You know like in North Korea.
Those kids are part of an orgainization called Obama kids. It is a volunteer group that was part of the Organize America campaign. Mom and dad had to be on board or else they wouldn’t be there. Now if their parents want to teach them that Obama is good and the right man for the job well–hold on to your hat–that is their right! Parents get to teach their kids the values they want them to have.
Parents are the only people who have a right to determine the policitcal and religious values their kids will be taught. The fact that you do not agree with the parents political views does not mean you get the right to tell the parents that they cannot instill their values in their kids or participate in things like Obama kids. Since when is it disgusting to intstill in your kids the values you want them to have? I did it and I bet you did too. (No doubt you will be relieved to learn that my values didn’t stick.)
Now had this been a school organized activity then I would agree with you that it was highly inappropriate. However, it was not. Schools have no business teaching political values based on what is better for the country–Democrats or Republicans. In North Korea kids ARE taught the values espoused by their government which means Kim Jong-il in school.
I do not “fear” anything of the sort. I will state this as simply as I can for you:
Using kids for political means is generally bad.
No fear. No party preference. No value statements. Nothing. Just a simple statement.
Is that a blank cheque? Would a parent be able to teach Satanism? Celestial Teapotism? Mithraism? Or in reference to values could they teach that gays are satan’s spawn and must be destroyed? That abortion is murder and the murderers must be punished eye for an eye? Or a combination – Muslims are evil terrorists and should be feared/defeated. Or is it just in reference to “socially acceptable” values and religions? If so who determines the cut-off line for what is or what is not socially acceptable? Your pompous tone (whether by chance or design) seems to imply that you believe that you have the ability to decide what is right and wrong acceptable or not for everybody….
Or just maybe…just maybe they could instill social values such as honesty, integrity, kindness as well as the importance of education, reason and understanding and actually let the kids play a part in shaping their adult character. Far fetched, I know.
I will concede that in today’s society you are 100% correct. Parents can and will “teach” their kids to be mindless little donkeys or elephants and to blindly follow the party. Gotta love freedom.
For the love of the Teapot please stop making assertions of what is and what isn’t. I am not sure if it is an intended trolling strategy, a byproduct of poorly constructed arguments, or just boundless arrogance. And congratulations on taking me completely off topic and inducing me to address your strawmen. Well played.
Excellent, Goat. Just excellent. Thanks.
Dentoku why is it excellent?
Goat was abrasive and veered seriously off tract.
I wrote “Parents are the only people who have a right to determine the political and religious values their kids will be taught” and he responds with “Your pompous tone (whether by chance or design) seems to imply that you believe that you have the ability to decide what is right and wrong acceptable or not for everybody….” What part of what I wrote did he not understand? Perhaps he chose to forget the very statement that I wrote and he pasted into his comments simply so he could continue to be disagreeable.
Next thing you know he is talking about killing people and Satanism and I am recoiling and wondering where did that come from? What was excellent about his diatribe?
Parents can and will “teach†their kids to be mindless little donkeys or elephants and to blindly follow the party. Parents can try. Kids tend to grow up and choose their own party. Out of three kids and two step-kids –one is a Democrat and I cannot take credit for that.
I am not aware that I made any controversial, inflammatory, irrelevant or off-topic remarks. If the assumptions I made about why you found the children singing disguting were wrong well you failed to explain. I know it isn’t the kids singing but the group using them to promote a political viewpoint except those kids weren’t being used to promote a political view point but engaged in a club activity meant for them and not to promote anything to the public at large. So who is the group–trying not to make anymore assumptions here– that you find disgusting?Parents who allowed their kids to participate?
Off topic and irrelevant to the initial claim that kids are being used as pawns.
Poor choice of language in that you assert that all parents indoctrinate their children. Stats to back that up?
You assume I am a Republican. Why is that? I am not a Republican nor am I a Democrat. Furthermore, your statement implies that there cannot exist mutual exclusivity between promoting family values and political indoctrination of children. I see those as quite different.
And I asked who determines what values are appropriate for children who probably do not yet have the capacity to make informed decisions using the rather benign example of South Korean schoolchildren being taught hate from both parents and schools.
Clearly they have no objection in involving their kids in a political process as pawns. Do it for the future…do it for the kids (appeal to emotion), right? That is what I object to in the first place.
You assert that you know the one truth behind the meaning of the video. As mentioned, I see it differently.
Once again, if you say so…
I did not know that you were fully familiar with how the children are raised in the north and what they are taught and not taught. Have you considered that they are actually not taught to object or criticize and that it is simply not considered an option?
Pretty heavy presumption…that was wrong again.
That’s all fine and dandy. I couldn’t care less about that at all. It is the fact that they produce videos and parade them around to “support” their cause using the aforementioned appeal to emotion fallacy.
Too broad and all encompassing which elicited the more extreme examples to make my point. Your assertion implies that it is always ok if it’s the parents that do it. I strongly disagree.
Off topic and irrelevant to anything mentioned.
This actually left me speechless. My point was regarding using kids for political purposes. Everything else in this thread was initiated by you (to which I foolishly responded).
Absurd examples to counter the absurd notion that parents have the right to teach whichever values they choose.
I would prefer my kids to choose policy over party. But that is just me.
Nothing was really controversial or inflammatory but most was off topic. You attacked arguments I never made and made many assertions. I never said that the children singing were disgusting. In fact, I never really talked about the children at all. One last quote…
The only on topic argument against that (as I see it) would be to produce evidence and examples that the handlers for the group “Obama Kids” does not use the kids’ images or abilities for political gain.
Well all that quoting and such there was bound to be at least one mistake (damn no preview function!)
The section that has back to back quotes should have had: “What part of what I wrote did he not understand?” in quotes and “I understood everything. It is how you presented it that was disagreeable” unquoted.
And for the record, I was glad that Obama beat out Clinton and was indifferent to him winning the presidency. So far, he has been a fair bit less than impressive with his policies. Regardless, my opinions on Obama, the Democrats, Republicans or Mithraists(?) have nothing to do with the original statement.
Crap.
“Have you considered that they are actually not taught notto object or criticize and that it is simply not considered an option?
That’s a lot of nots.
Negotiate the other errors on your own.
Fortuneate,
One continual irritant of conservatives by liberals, in my experience, is the statements liberals make with all this assurance which presents as though it should be patently obviously to anyone that they are correct. You seem to be pretty good at this as Goat has detailed above. So is Juan Williams and unfortunately poorly informed or impressionable minds can be greatly influenced by this error which can become a situation that is all but uncorrectable.
As I said a while back reasonable minds can disagree (perhaps unreasonable in this case) on most issues and I guess that’s what makes freedom freedom. I tend to agree almost completely with Goat in most of what he says and most never agree with you which of course is primarily the difference in political philosophy. And in the case above I agreed that he thought you were a bit pompous (and as I noted above) which is often the case., in my impression.
On the other hand I definitely appreciate that you seem to present your ‘feelings’ as honestly as you can and are not above admitting that you might be mistaken on occasion.
Regarding this issue of what kids are presented in school and the authority figure of who presents it or comes up with the idea. I heard a great analogy presented by a broadcaster on the radio today as he discussed this issue., and for Kevin, no it wasn’t Glenn Beck or Fox news channel. He gave the example of what happened when he took his daughter to Sunday school for the first time at church. After Sunday school was concluded and as he loaded the family in the car his daughter announced to him that she had learned that he, the announcer, was not her true father – you can see where this is going, of course.. And yes, the dad asked her what did she mean by that, to which she replied, God is my father, not you because that’s what Pastor Soandso said today. She was a young impressionable girl and she was pretty convinced it was true because the Pastor said so. It took the dad a while to explain what was going on to his daughter and to get it straightened out with her so that it made sense and was put in proper context. So the point, obviously, is that kids are taught things in school that, while containing a thread or a grain of truth perhaps, are way off the mark not only of the whole truth but of the direction in which their parents would have them go. Quite often these things can not be undone at all for a wide variety of reasons. Hence, Obama has no business IMV indoctrinating students with his ideas and the NEA has no business doing his bidding.
It may interest to add that in an earlier incarnation in my early thirties I took a master’s in Education with every intention of becoming a professor and an educator – I was serious about it and graduated with honors. But in dealing with the school ‘system’s’ thereafter, I was pretty appalled at what I found – such that shortly thereafter I left the field entirely never to return. I was appalled by not just the mind set of educators in general and their liberal bent, but in their inability to move off the status quo and be in any way creative in management, curriculum development or teaching. It was a mess then and is worse now and I firmly believe that the liberal mindset, in control of our school systems together with the NEA for decades now if directly responsible for the public education failures in this country.
Our public school systems are a bonefide failure so how can our country hope to prosper or keep pace with the rest of the advancing or developed world. Put most simply, they can’t and we’re in big trouble and Mr. Obama knows this, and IMO, though he doesn’t ever address the changes he wants in threatening terms he intends a movement as fast as practical and as conditions will allow into, at minimum, socialism. Now I believe that and fairly apparently you don’t seem to. I am quite sure that anyone who is willing to admit the truth to themselves, who has a brain that is in any way analytical and has the time (time is a huge influence since most of us don’t even have time to wipe our noses, let alone do such research) to do some digging, and it’s not far below the surface and is pretty easily seen, can find multiple ‘hits’ quickly which reinforce the almost absolute truth of this view. Just look at his favorite associates, his favorite teachers and professors from his formative years. Look at his words. Look at who he has surrounded himself with (not just Czar’s of which there were 32 at max count, now down to 31, after Mr. Jones). Look at how he has controlled access to his education records to include his doctoral thesis which apparently is lost – missing from the university – obviously hiding something, or rather lots of things, more probably. Give me a break here – does this actually mean there is no copy of his thesis available – the man himself doesn’t have a copy? And there are so many other examples too. As I said before, it doesn’t take rocket science to connect those dots, even Glenn Beck can do it.
Now, as to your own words. You raised five kids and got only one Democrat for whom you can’t take credit. You made that statement, I think, to reinforce the point that you can try to teach kids your political philosophy but that they have minds of their own. I agree with most of that but probably not the causal influences. I would wager a guess that while they love you as their mother that your political philosophy did not line up with their observations of what they saw happening and what made sense to them. Similarly, I find that I mostly like you but that what you say doesn’t square with my experience and am continually distressed that you are really missing the truth or or intentionally ignoring it (Juan Williams, again) – further, it can be distressing to encounter an otherwise bright and inquisitive person with this malady. I don’t think there’s a cure either,, certainly not in my experience and certainly not during.times of plenty.
I had a good conclusion I was going to end with it but it escapes my mind.
Anyway, that’s what I think. No offense intended.
—————————
BTW, Obama’s assertion that in his health care legislation that you can keep your provider if you want to which you have heard him proclaim any number of times is simply not true. The truth is, in the bill, section 102, “Requirements’, section” sets up all sorts of requirements any of which if violated will cause the government to force the individual or business to cancel their chosen provider and to choose one of the government options. Further, Medicare takes a massive hit, to include downsizing by 400 billion dollars and elimination of Hospice care among other numerous other things. Of course most congress-people in favor of this bill are either lying or simply have not read the bill, probably a lot of both. That’s liberal lying IMV, yet again. And we are supposed to trust these people? But of course it’s Obama lying too. You heard it with your own ears. What now?
I’m just sayin.
RE: “Schools have no business teaching political values based on what is better for the country–Democrats or Republicans. In North Korea kids ARE taught the values espoused by their government which means Kim Jong-il in school.”
Every country’s education system teaches values that are espoused by their government. You didn’t learn history from a textbook written in Germany or Japan did you? Social Studies, Economics, Science, English, Home-Ec, Music, whatever…all has been touched by the hand of government, and from there, acceptable and unacceptable values have been passed along through textbooks and teachers. Throw in an unhealthy mixture of religious dogma to the education system, and what you have then is pure indoctrination.
RE: “Schools have no business teaching political values based on what is better for the country–Democrats or Republicans. In North Korea kids ARE taught the values espoused by their government which means Kim Jong-il in school.”
Every country’s education system teaches values that are espoused by their government. You didn’t learn history from a textbook written in Germany or Japan did you? Social Studies, Economics, Science, English, Home-Ec, Music, whatever…all has been touched by the hand of government, and from there, acceptable and unacceptable values have been passed along through textbooks and teachers. Throw in an unhealthy mixture of religious dogma to the education system, and what you have then is pure indoctrination.
hmmm…not sure why that posted twice…but just think of it as a buffet…if you are still hungry after reading it once, then go back for seconds.
😯
VJ you are right that teachers sometimes do impart their own political and/or religious values. I don’t know the solution to that. However, I wouldn’t call it indoctrination because it isn’t a school wide policy or effort but just the act of the individual. Keep in mind that teachers are not all of one political persuasion or religion so your child is likely to be exposed to a bevy of differing ideas and opinions. The end result may be a child who questions. Perhaps some parents have a problem with that but I never did. I wasn’t raising a bunch of little mes and I never felt I had the right to dictate their path but simply provide guidance so hopefully they would choose a good path.
Goat I tried to write an apology for sounding pompous but it sounded just like everything else I had written so you’d probably just think my apology was pompous too.
I admitted my response was based on certain assumptions. One of those assumptions was that the video was homemade most likely by a proud parent. The video surfaced on Youtube in September 08 with the caption ‘Cute or Creepy” Under the “more info” button off to the side you will find written “We are offering the video to everyone, the Obama campaign and all media with high hopes that we can all join together to Sing for Change” That comment doesn’t quite jive with the video caption so I am not sure that the handlers are guilty of trying to use their images for political gain. The video was not used in Obama’s campaign.
Later versions of the video surfaced in October, one with interspersed footage of German children in Nazi Germany singing Hitler is our savior etc and the Korean version that John posted. I guess given that those who made the two October versions were trying to paint a picture of Obama as the same as Hitler or Kim Jong il that you could say they were using the kids images to promote a political message. I guess you could say John is guilty of the same. I’m pretty sure he posted this video at this particular time to draw a corollary to the bruhaha over Obama addressing school kids today.