11 thoughts on “Great minds thinking alike and all that…”

1. You think anyone who does not agree with you is an America hater. That was an aside; now let me address the real gist of your article. You want to know why Democrats aren’t repudiating those on the extreme left. Instapundit writes an article about some professor in Colorado. This professor, Churchill(?) did not make the news so most of America hasn’t heard of him. You bloggers gave him far more media exposure that legitimate msm. Democrats see no reason to repudiate that to which they do not lend credence. I am not the least bit worried that this guy will influence anyone or manage to obtain a public office. The same cannot be said of the Republican party, which is why I am no longer a Republican. Republicans have made a devil’s bargain with religious fundamentalist. As long as corporate Republicans can control the economic policies they are willing to let the fundamentalist sector control social policies. Consequently we see fundamentalist being supported and funded by the Republican party, gaining political offices such as councilmen (try the one in Maryland who believes women cannot hold elected office because women cannot have dominion over men) lots of school board positions (although these are suppose to be nonpartisan positions) resulting in a move to water down science, and political appointments to federal jobs overseeing things like women’s reproductive health-headed by a man who does not believe in contraceptives -to him they are abortificants.
   Sorry Lngtimegne but the Republicans have done a terrible job of silencing its fringe. In fact they have embraced them and given them their very own niche.
   Instapundit quotes Klein to support his thesis when, if you read her article or anything by her, it is obvious she is a liberal-a Canadian liberal to boot. Obviously, liberals are willing to examine and refute those on the left fringe! Democrats from everywhere but Mass. have been marginalizing Ted Kennedy for years. The Iraq war has unfortunately given him back his voice that had all but been silenced and an audience that had all but ignored him for the last decade or more. Boxer is another story. I saw the confirmation hearing and I did not think Boxer was out of line. Rice just couldn’t answer her.
   Now let’s look at the righties Instapundit quoted and examine them for their nearness to the middle of the road. Hmm, lets look at Djerjain. He tells a story about an America letftie (meaning liberal, meaning Democrat) who admitted she was secretly happy the World trade Center was blown up -felt a moment of joy. Sorry I don’t buy this story any more than I buy that story the guy told the other day about the Muslim women in the line. As far as I am concerned both of the storytellers, who were right wing zealots should be muzzled but I don’t hear you raising a hue and a cry to silence them or repudiate them. There are a lot more right wing zealots out there than there are left wing zealots. You are willing to coexist with them though because they support your opinion that we should have gone to war when we did and believe democracy can be force fed and that the spread of democracy through force should become an American goal, damn the cost in our children’s lives and economic fortunes. Maybe it is because I am a mother, but I am not willing to sacrifice one of my children to advance an idealistic goal unless that goal is to protect American or to prevent genocide. Iraq met neither of those criteria at the onset of this war. It has now become a breeding ground for terrorism, providing instability in the Middle East which always serves terrorism, fueling recruitment efforts and a place for combat training. Well done! The truth is you have compromised your value system in order to find like minded people to shore up your own opinion on the war. Rather than admit you are keeping company with fringe lunatics you deny their lunacy. That is different from us lefties who admit we have a lunatic fringe but ignore them.

2. John, I dutifully read your suggested blogs and found it all to be a big yawn. This is a pretty big country. Lots of people on the left and lots of people on the right and the vast majority crowding up the middle. The media, being what it is, mostly reports the spewings of the extremes to pique the interest of those in the middle. When you wave the flag (and I do like to see it wave!) remember one of the things that makes this country so different is everyone having their right to voice their disagreement with the government. There are other countries that operate under the democratic concept that do not enjoy the liberties we do. I am equally frightened and amused that the Rightists claim to be the champions of liberty, the exporters of democracy, even as they carve out chunks of our freedom to tighten their own grip on power.

   I don’t imagine anybody outside of Massachusetts cares what Kennedy has to say. He is a joke, and like Bush, his family connections have kept him out of prison. And to me, that’s really the big problem with our political system. The greatest nation in the history of the world, and these are the low-grade people we put in our highest offices. Come on! I’m not saying Bush is an idiot, but he sure isn’t bright. Don’t you think we deserve a bright leader to represent us before the world and to command the most potentially destructive armed forces on the planet? Yeah, yeah, yeah, this is what the majority wanted. But it’s not like they had a lot of options. How about a law that says if you were born with a silver spoon in your mouth and a Saudi nose up your ass, you can’t run for President?

   Now you might say not to worry, Bush has bright people feeding him his decisions. Let’s see, that would be Cheney, a corrupt and evil caricature of a human. And Rumsfeld, who fired every general who knew how to run a war and voice a dissenting opinion. The blessedly retired Ashcroft, who was like a Nazi, except Nazis were more honest about their intentions. And Condo Rice. Yes Virginia, she IS a LIAR. If you don’t know that by word and deed, just look into her eyes. On a TV screen from 3000 miles away, I can see it.

   And what happened to the separation of church and state? We are exploring space, and we have idiots in power who want to spend our limited education funds teaching children that Darwinism is some obscure and evil theory, and the earth is only 6,000 years old.

   Scarey times these are. I think I am far more concerned about what the government is up to than what the fringes are saying about it. And if I sound like part of the lunatic fringe, I am. The way far right. I say let’s embrace the constitution and the principles our brave founding fathers fought for. Let’s find a way to wrest the electoral process away from the moneyed interests and give real people a chance to be elected. Let’s take care of America.

3. Mom and Burlybass… already made good points about the power of right-wing extremists (ID-or creationism-, loss of women’s rights, loss of civil liberties) so I don’t feel I need to add anything to that. Instead I would like to point out that the left-wing extremists have started to work their way into the sub-conscious of otherwise rational
   Democrats:

   1. “right wing zealots should be muzzled,”…I also find right wing zealots offensive and, because I am a woman, frightening. However, “muzzling” people who disagree with us is equally as frightening to me.
   2. “…or to prevent genocide. Iraq met neither of those criteria at the onset of this war.”…um, what about the Kurds? Or did I miss the Michael Moore memo that proved that was a cleverly designed story to justify stealing oil?
   3. “…dutifully read your suggested blogs and found it all to be a big yawn.” How jaded can you be to be unmoved to read about man who compares the people working in the WTC to Nazis, the average American to complacent Germans during the Third Reich, and says it will take many more 9/1ls to fix this country (the fixing being that the US should be wiped from the face of the planet) AND is a professor at a college with access to many young impressionable minds. Never mind the mainstream media – he doesn’t need it to reach a large audience.
   4. “…like Bush, his family connections have kept him out of prison.” I just don’t even know what to say about this one. Ted Kennedy is responsible for a woman’s death. What did Bush do?
   5. “…I’m not saying Bush is an idiot, but he sure isn’t bright.” This is one of my favorites. Bush went to one of our most prestigious schools. Connections alone didn’t get him through that. The whole concept of Bush not being bright is based on the fact that he is not a good extemporaneous speaker. Neither are most of us. (As a complete aside, I really think he actually improved the old adage “Fool me once…”)
   6. “How about a law that says if you were born with a silver spoon in your mouth and a Saudi nose up your ass, you can’t run for President?” and “Let’s find a way to wrest the electoral process away from the moneyed interests.” Granted, those with money and connections have an incredibly easier time rising to prominence than those without. However, the subtext of these two comments (whether or not intended) is that money and those who have are evil – and that is an unhealthy view. Hopefully, the first comment was tongue in cheek or otherwise it is quasi-socialist. And, Michael Moore aside, what is this Saudi business? In the words of John Adams, “Facts are stubborn things and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictums of our passions, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
   7. “Cheney, a corrupt and evil caricature of a human.” Why? No, seriously, why? (Again, Michael Moore aside)
   8. “The blessedly retired Ashcroft, who was like a Nazi,” You know, I am only 29 years old, which means the Nazis were way before my time. However, I still am aware of the fact that the Nazis where responsible for the most heinous crimes in all of history. In case the word “Nazi” has lost its sting let me remind you that they almost exterminated a entire race less than a lifetime ago. It was just a few days ago that the 60th anniversary of the liberation of Auschwitz was recognized. I saw pictures of very old men crying remembering what had happened. It is not only irresponsible, it is disgusting, and insulting (to the Jewish people) to compare anyone in our government to the Nazis. Enough said.
   9. “And Condi Rice…, she IS a LIAR,…just look into her eyes.” I don’t think I really have to say anything here.
   10. “Let’s find a way to wrest the electoral process away from the moneyed interests and give real people a chance to be elected.” Back to this one, at the risk of sounding like a broken record on my second posting to John’s blog, we have choices. They require homework and courage to try to make a change. There are third parties out there. Economic conservatives don’t have to accept social conservatives to have their views represented. And social liberals don’t have to accept outright socialists and evil Robin Hoods to have their views represented. We have to stop being complacent. Unfortunately for John, I don’t think there are any hawkish third partiesJ but for the rest of us-there is something else out there if we look for it.

4. Ashely, I do believe you have the makings of a blogger! Excellent comment! I am going to do a post later today “fisking” that burleybastaadinbencia (yeah, I know who you are **coughKeithcough**but I still love ya). You have said much of what I wanted to Ashley, but I’ll add my two cents anyway.

   And you guys keep it up, I do appreciate this dialogue.

5. Yes, she is pretty good at that (what is the word you bloggers use?)thing where you disassemble an argument piece by piece. However, I stand by my genocide remark. Genocide is defined as the deliberate and systematic destruction of a racial, political or cultural group. In using the term I was referring to the killing off of a racial, political or cultural group. Hussein killed some Kurds but he killed far, far fewer Kurds than he did Iraqis from the Southern region following Desert Storm. His aim was to put down an insurrection not to kill them for the simple purpose of eradicating them because of who or what they were.

   As fr the Kurds, after several hours of research, I found that Hussein gassed 5,000 Kurds in 1988. At he time the Kurds were supporting -armed support-the Iranians in the Iraq-Iran war. The war ended in ’88. You have no doubt heard much larger figures thrown out with respect to this event. The number of kurds reported killed increases exponentially with political rhetoric beginning around 2001. Other than remarking on this fact I cannot offer an explanation for the increase reported. However, the 5,000 figure was recognized for over a decade as is derived from reports from the scientific community and Human Watch groups. I’ll let Burlybasstedinbenicia defend his position.

   While I am at it let me address another comment tossed around a lot that is obviously designed to inflame emotions-rape rooms. Bush has repeatedly refered to the “rape rooms” and conservative bloggers have amplified the allegation that Hussein’s government routinely raped women as a means of torture, usually the mental torture of male family members. Those Human Watch groups have been reporting on abuses in Iraq for decades. They lists the different practices employed in the torture of prisoners. Initially (for a long itme) rape did not appear on the reports as a type of torture method used. This may be because rape was not viewed as a tool but as a by product if you know what I mean. Reports in the last two decades included using the threat of rape as one of the practices but applied to the male prisoners themselves. There have been mem who alleged that their female family members were raped before them and at least one woman who alleged that female prisoners were raped (she has since been discredited) but all of these reports came out after 2001. Make of it what you will.

   Ah yes one more point. I frequently see the shi’ites reported as making up 80% or more of the population. Before the war this figure was 60%. So I did a little checking and sure enough they make up almost 60% of the population. If you check back far enough you will discover that they were not always the majority. That could be the result of faulty census figures or the result of the practice of having more children among the Shi’ites. Who knows.

   Maybe I am wrong but it seems to me that “rape rooms” and the 80% figure were thrown out there to emphasize 1) how bad Hussein was and 2) how unfair it was for the Sunnis to control the government when they were a small minority in the country. Well wasn’t he bad enough without exaggerating? You don’t have to fudge the numbers to convince us that a 60-40 split with the 40% controlling is unfair. in America us 49% are pissed because the 51% are unwilling to compromise on a single thing and hell bent on pushing an agenda designed for the Republican party platform. We aren’t even the majority!

6. Ashley, I suppose your questions are rhetorical, but if you truly want clarification, read on.
   8. The Nazis rose from a small right wing political party to control of the most powerful industrial nation on the European continent to control of that continent in a relatively short period of time. One of their tactics was finding an enemy (Jews) to blame everything on, whip the people into a frenzy of fear and hatred, invade neighbors for the control of their resources, usw.
   There was much more about Nazism than killing Jews. In fact, that part of their strategy was manifested somewhat late in their reign. Maybe I can find a different label for Ashcroft… Fascist, Torquemada, McCarthy… something that smacks of self-righteous evil.
   3. I thought I made the point I don’t care what the fringe extremists have to say. Whether he is a senator, a professor, or a fundamentalist Bible waver, he has a right to his opinions and I have a right not to care. As for being a professor, should our rule be to shelter college students from different points of view? Are they not smart enough to reject the absurd. If he is to be kept off the campus, then should we not also exclude homosexuals, communists and the fundamentalist who reject basic science? Maybe Democrats who oppose the war should not be allowed to teach. They might dissuade their students from military service, then where would we be? Some rich Republican kids might have to go fight. Right now, we have an “all volunteer” military composed largely of working class kids who are just trying to get money for college.
   4. Bush has been a coke head and by extension a supporter of drug trafficking. He regularly opeated a motor vehicle under the influence of alcohol and cocaine– but there is no evidence he killed anybody like Teddy. He has been involved in some business deals that should have drawn the attention of the SEC. He has skated clean where the Clinton’s and Martha Stewart got raked.
   5. My understanding of the admission policies of Ivy League schools is that if your daddy is an alumnus, it counts more points than grades and SAT scores. Add a big donation to that and you are in. His undergrad GPA was around 2.0, and he might have cheated to get that. Maybe we just don’t define bright the same way. I think graduating from one of the military academies is far more impressive than being a freaking Yalie, especially if you fashion yourself war leader.
   6. No, money is not inherently evil. It’s all in how you come by it. There are many wealthy people who are true philanthropists– but the only ones I can think of are Democrats. Most people seem happy with our political process, and they think politicians really care about serving our best interests. I am not among those who worship mediocrity, so I must live out my days in frustration. All the great civilizations of the past have collapsed and I don’t see how ours can do any better if we continue to choose leaders who serve only special interests, who do not think protecting the environment is important, who ingnore the infrastructure and domestic problems that weaken our country in order to serve the interests of business.
   7. Cheney has made a lot of money polluting the environment and shaking down the taxpayers. During his oversight Halliburton was and continues to boost their profits by operating on the dimmest margins of the law. He owns and is owned by businesses profiting from this war he helped to conjure up. I saw a graph on the net that showed a comparison between the body count of the Bush-Cheney war and the money Cheney’s “blind trusts” have made. I consider it immoral and corrupt, and by extension inhuman.
   9. I know this is not a question, but I sense by your response you think Rice is not a liar. People who work in criminal justice and intelligence have some scientific training for judging when someone is lying. Of course it’s not an exact science. But I believe she is lying, and so does Babs Boxer, and Babs and me normally only agree on environmental protection. Sounds like a hung jury.

7. In my original comment I answered each point I pulled from Mom’s and Burlybass’s comments-which confused the issue. My point is that both comments verged on “fringe leftist” and they weren’t aware of it. Incidentially, the responses to my comment didn’t change my opinion. This time my favorite was the comment that all rich people aren’t evil-some of them are philanthropists. Is that an either, or type of thing? If so, I better get to church because only in rare situations (such as the tsunami) do I part with my hard earned money in the name of charity. Anyhoo-to each his own. Personally I prefer the lefty nuts to the righty ones. I can hide my money but I can’t hide my uterus. I just thought John needed some back up.

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